I D cards

amenity · I D cards

Douglas Carswell introduced to this area of Harwich and Clacton the idea of fighting the estabishment of ID Cards using people power via the internet through website like this one, for this he deserves praise.
Strangely today David Blunkett seems to have woken up to the stealth and reach of the thought police state saying that microphones that can listen in to private conversations at great distances are "a step too far".
Of course such devices are not new and are used for surveilance right now.
Couple these devices to the plethera of DNA, fingerprints, electronic facial mapping, phone tapping, listening equipment,eye recognition software and others to ID Cards, passports, driving license, road fund license, marriage license library records, NHS records, bank account details what have you.

It really is a STEP TOO FAR!!

amenity

ID Cards will result in superior intelligence that will be handled tactfully, with utmost discretion, total transparency, complete confidence, total trust, with high efficiency, complete security.

Really?

EssexGurl

Nah they be lying bout dat.

Do the goverment actually think that after all the massive cock ups and lies that anyone trusts them. I wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw one of those lying cheating politicans (I'm a wimp so thats not far at all).

amenity

So "A headmistress said it will prepare them for later in life living under a terrorist threat"

What was she talking about?

You guessed it, children under her 'care' as young as five, are being fingerprinted.

EssexGurl

Thats bloody disgraceful. I would certainly have issues if that lady were my childrens head.

Looking on the bright side I am guessing all those that turn to a life of crime will already know what to do Rolling Eyes

Now as its preparing them why not have a bit of roll play where they simulate a bomb going off near by Confused

Children lose their innocence earlier and earlier, but this is a step to far. Let them be children for as long as possible, before you make them take part in this.

amenity

I ought to have said 'without their parents/ guardians knowledge'

EssexGurl

I hate the way schools can just do things and assume that its ok. I have had dealings with one of the local schools head and deputy head due to bullying and how they dealt with it. In the end I ended up quoting the law to them and the LGA had to contact the school to clarify that I was right.

Some heads are great, some think they can do whatever they like and it doesnt matter what the parents want.

If schools want to help prepare kids for the real world rather than making them think fingerprinting is the norm and ok why not teach them skills from an early age that are useful and relevent. Proper cooking - with real ingrediants. Whole meals and not just mash. Money management. Green issues.

amenity

And that getting on with each other is better than competing with each other.

amenity

Just got this by email.

Please sign and pass this on. It only takes a minute...

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to
purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it.

The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC,
the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery
driver.

A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in
one month.

On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will
know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been
going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit you can expect a
NIP with your monthly bill.

If you care about our freedoms and stopping the constant bashing of the car
driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

Please pass this on to anyone who owns a car/motorcycle. It affects them.

amenity

From The Indy today,
Two months ago Richard Thomas, the Information Commissioner, warned that Britain was "waking up to a surveillance society that is already all around us". But ministers dismiss such fears and are pressing ahead with the world's most ambitious identity scheme, as well as a rapid expansion of the DNA database. Details of all children will be held in a single register to be launched next year, medical records are being transferred to a central NHS database and plans are being examined to track motorists' movements by satellite.

The idea of sharing personal details between departments follows a review of public services designed to make them more efficient. Ministers reached the conclusion that data protection rules limiting access to information about adults were too tight.

John Hutton, the Work and Pensions Secretary, cited an incident yesterday where a bereaved family were contacted 44 times in a six-month period by different parts of his department to confirm details of an accident. Mr Hutton said: "The Government already stores vast amounts of data about individual citizens, but actually doesn't share it terribly intelligently. There is room for improvement."

Interesting that they are worried about a family suffering 44 needless approaches to officialdom. Call me cynical but!!!!!!!!

Nevertheless he is concerned about the governments intelligence, he's not alone.

amenity

Just goes to show how things get out of hand. We must be vigilant. After all the UK has run out of prison space in an eerily manner.

Far fetched?

From TimesOnline.co.uk: No one knows how many people are executed in China each year. That number is a state secret. However, Amnesty International estimates that at least 1,770 people were executed last year and 3,900 were sentenced to death — more than in the whole of the rest of the world put together. Chinese legal experts say that the actual number may be far higher.

The decision to restore to the Supreme Court the right to review all death sentences was motivated not only by a series of reports in the increasingly courageous Chinese media of miscarriages of justice. Debate about the widespread and arbitrary use of the death penalty has also raged in recent years. China holds that the death penalty should be used sparingly. However, the number of capital crimes has more than tripled since China promulgated its criminal law in 1980, many of the additions being non-violent or economic crimes such as VAT and insurance fraud. Today nearly 70 crimes qualify as capital offences, ranging from stealing pigs or cattle to hooliganism.

amenity

In furtherence of my almost one man show, how about this? it shows the limitations of DNA techniques.

Bone Marrow Transplants Mix Up DNA

From New Scientist.com: "IT SOUNDS like an open-and-shut case: a clear DNA match is made between semen from a serious sexual assault and a blood sample from a known criminal. Yet in a recent case from Alaska, the criminal in question was in jail when the assault took place. And forensic scientists had already matched the crime sample to the DNA profile of another person who was their prime suspect. It was only after careful detective work that the mystery was solved: the jailed man had received bone marrow from the suspect many years earlier.

This week, at a meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics in Salt Lake City, Utah, Abirami Chidambaram of the Alaska State Scientific Crime Detection Laboratory in Anchorage described the case to highlight the danger of miscarriages of justice. Given the retribution that can be doled out to sex offenders by other jail inmates, the consequences could be severe. "If you implicate the wrong person, they can be killed in prison," says Chidambaram.

When Chidambaram discovered the perplexing match, she initially thought there had been a sample mix-up. But there was no mistake. What's more, the jailed man and suspect shared the same surname.Because medical records are confidential, a detective had to make further enquiries among family and friends of the two men. That revealed that not only were the convict and suspect brothers, but the inmate had received a bone marrow transplant from his brother. As a result, his blood was populated with cells bearing his brother's DNA profile.It's an instance of life imitating art: in November 2004, US TV channel NBC broadcast an smile of Law and Order: Special victims unit in which a rapist nearly got away with his crimes because of a similar bone-marrow mix-up." [Mark Godsey]

Lin

Amenity ,you may think you are running a one man show here,but I for one find all this very interesting and am pleased that you are highlighting such important issues that would otherwise have been sneaked in through the back door.
Please don't think that you are the only one as we are all reading this thread with great interest and without it we would not know a lot of important issues(being a humble daily mail reader -online so I don't get most of the higher brow stuff).
Keep up the good work and Thank You for all the items.
Old George Orwell must have been a visionary.

amenity

Lin, thank you for that,

I just felt the subject might have become boring so made the statement by way of an excuse to post more.

Whilst the effects of the tightening of the restraining ropes by government on our freedoms will have only (I expect) a short term effect on me, it will affect our children because they will grow up with restrictions and not know how it used to be, they might even say "so long as they don't come for me what have I got to worry about".

amenity

It will come to pass I suppose that digital TV will be in every home, or so government wants. ID cards ID TV's?

Well worth a read.

Your TV is watching you
David Burke
6 - 3 - 2003
The interactive television revolution will mean more choice, more control and more freedom for the viewer, right? Wrong says the man behind White Dot – the campaign to switch off television – all it means is more ways for media corporations to keep tabs on your viewing habits and tailor their products to your tastes. Don’t believe him? Listen to what the corporations say…

http://www.opendemocracy.net/media-digitaltv/article_1019.jsp

amenity

Is it possible that personally identifiable information is collectable from digital TV's, from the excerpt below it seems like it.

The full discussion is on the link.

"My hope is that by showing where interactive TV is going, I can prod the companies who make it to offer up arguments based on principles. TiVo, for instance, claimed they never gathered personally identifiable information from viewers' set top boxes. That was a good start - a principle you could argue about and hold them to. (When the Privacy Foundation in Colorado found that TiVo had in fact been collecting such information I was disappointed, but not surprised.)"

http://www.opendemocracy.net/foru...7&threadID=42150&tstart=0

amenity

This taken from government website, last sentence seems to imply ability to retain personal information.

http://www.digitaltelevision.gov.uk/global/faq_home.html#9

Why do we need to switch?

The Government wants everyone to have a greater choice of digital TV options that they can afford. This can only be achieved through a universal switch to digital signals. Today 27% of UK households cannot receive the full range of digital services available free through their aerials. After digital switchover, at least 98.5% of homes in the UK (the same proportion as now) should be able to receive free TV through an aerial.

In addition, much of the UK’s broadcasting and transmission network is over 30 years old and needs replacing. It should be replaced with the best available technology – digital - so that the UK is ready for the broadcasting of the future. Digital switchover will also free up spectrum that can be used to provide new innovative services for consumers such as high definition television, broadcasting services to mobile phones and other handheld devices, and new interactive services

amenity

So!
Important info on 28,000 in post to wrong addresses, looks good for the future of ID cards?

amenity

New Epassports only guarranteed for two years.
Micro chips in new ten year passports only good for two years a joke surely?
With government dishing out £450 million over 1998 to 2010.
For the individual passsports gone up from £51 to £66 to cover this chip system.

daveb · National ID Cards-Another Government Money Pit

On the subject of National ID cards. Well The results of the e-petition to No 10 are in. Supposedly only 28,000 people signed up in opposition to the proposed ID cards. The email proclaiming the failiure of the petition was accompanied by the following patronising garbage:

The e-petition to "scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards" has now closed. The petition stated that "The introduction of ID cards will not prevent terrorism or crime, as is claimed. It will be yet another indirect tax on all law-abiding citizens of the UK". This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

The petition calling for the Government to abandon plans for a National ID Scheme attracted almost 28,000 signatures - one of the largest responses since this e-petition service was set up. So I thought I would reply personally to those who signed up, to explain why the Government believes National ID cards, and the National Identity Register needed to make them effective, will help make Britain a safer place.

The petition disputes the idea that ID cards will help reduce crime or terrorism. While I certainly accept that ID cards will not prevent all terrorist outrages or crime, I believe they will make an important contribution to making our borders more secure, countering fraud, and tackling international crime and terrorism. More importantly, this is also what our security services - who have the task of protecting this country - believe.

So I would like to explain why I think it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to use biometrics such as fingerprints to secure our identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need.

In contrast to these exaggerated figures, the real benefits for our country and its citizens from ID cards and the National Identity Register, which will contain less information on individuals than the data collected by the average store card, should be delivered for a cost of around £3 a year over its ten-year life.

But first, it's important to set out why we need to do more to secure our identities and how I believe ID cards will help. We live in a world in which people, money and information are more mobile than ever before. Terrorists and international criminal gangs increasingly exploit this to move undetected across borders and to disappear within countries. Terrorists routinely use multiple identities - up to 50 at a time. Indeed this is an essential part of the way they operate and is specifically taught at Al-Qaeda training camps. One in four criminals also uses a false identity. ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult.

Secure identities will also help us counter the fast-growing problem of identity fraud. This already costs £1.7 billion annually. There is no doubt that building yourself a new and false identity is all too easy at the moment. Forging an ID card and matching biometric record will be much harder.

I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.

The National Identity Register will also help improve protection for the vulnerable, enabling more effective and quicker checks on those seeking to work, for example, with children. It should make it much more difficult, as has happened tragically in the past, for people to slip through the net.

Proper identity management and ID cards also have an important role to play in preventing illegal immigration and illegal working. The effectiveness on the new biometric technology is, in fact, already being seen. In trials using this technology on visa applications at just nine overseas posts, our officials have already uncovered 1,400 people trying illegally to get back into the UK.

Nor is Britain alone in believing that biometrics offer a massive opportunity to secure our identities. Firms across the world are already using fingerprint or iris recognition for their staff. France, Italy and Spain are among other European countries already planning to add biometrics to their ID cards. Over 50 countries across the world are developing biometric passports, and all EU countries are proposing to include fingerprint biometrics on their passports. The introduction in 2006 of British e-passports incorporating facial image biometrics has meant that British passport holders can continue to visit the United States without a visa. What the National Identity Scheme does is take this opportunity to ensure we maximise the benefits to the UK.

These then are the ways I believe ID cards can help cut crime and terrorism. I recognise that these arguments will not convince those who oppose a National Identity Scheme on civil liberty grounds. They will, I hope, be reassured by the strict safeguards now in place on the data held on the register and the right for each individual to check it. But I hope it might make those who believe ID cards will be ineffective reconsider their opposition.

If national ID cards do help us counter crime and terrorism, it is, of course, the law-abiding majority who will benefit and whose own liberties will be protected. This helps explain why, according to the recent authoritative Social Attitudes survey, the majority of people favour compulsory ID cards.

I am also convinced that there will also be other positive benefits. A national ID card system, for example, will prevent the need, as now, to take a whole range of documents to establish our identity. Over time, they will also help improve access to services.

The petition also talks about cost. It is true that individuals will have to pay a fee to meet the cost of their ID card in the same way, for example, as they now do for their passports. But I simply don't recognise most claims of the cost of ID cards. In many cases, these estimates deliberately exaggerate the cost of ID cards by adding in the cost of biometric passports. This is both unfair and inaccurate.

As I have said, it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport. We estimate that the cost of biometric passports will account for 70% of the cost of the combined passports/id cards. The additional cost of the ID cards is expected to be less than £30 or £3 a year for their 10-year lifespan. Our aim is to ensure we also make the most of the benefits these biometric advances bring within our borders and in our everyday lives.

Yours sincerely,

Tony Blair

MY RESPONSE
[1] As far as I can see the only people who will gain any financial advantage from its introduction are the Banks and Credit Card companies, by reducing their losses from identity theft. So when will they be making their contribution.

[2] If it is to be a compulsory requirement, I see no reason why individuals should have to pay a penny.

[3] To say it will contain less information than a store card is totally erroneous, I don't have a store card, but I'll probably have to have a Government ID card.

[4] If past Government IT projects are any guide the costs will almost certainly double, at best. Just look at the current fiasco with the NHS database.

[5] Why is the UK rushing headlong into this. Lets for once look around, if the rest of Europe is developing BIo metric ID cards, Lets see what happens and whose system is most succesful.

[6] I have serious doubts about both the security of Confidential information.Look at the recent incidence of illegal cleaners working at the Passport office.
Also its use or misuse by officials. I have had a US Visa for 4 years and was one of the first people photographed and fingerprinted by US immigration following the September 11th attacks. Yet despite the fact that the US government probably knows more about me than the UK Government. I have for the last two years been refused entry into the USA by Immigration officials, because there is another person with the same name and date of birth, despite the fact that they have different fingerprints and are about 9 inches shorter, and as far as I know look nothing like me or my Passport and VISA photographs.

[7] As regards removing the need to carry many documents, I'll bet the Banks will still want to see a utility bill if you want to open an account. Last time I had to prove ny ID at Barclays I took my Passport, NOT ACCEPTABLE. I had to produce my Debit Card with only a signature on it Rolling Eyes

amenity

"The government have announced children as young as six and up to sixteen years of age will be routinely fingerprinted when applying for a passport."

At six years of age it seems a travesty that a parent /guardian can concede on behalf of a child before he gains comprehension that others can have personal ID.

Surely this is illegal?

amenity

Will ID cards stop this?

From Lloyds list today,

Monday 5 March 2007

THE freight industry is heading for its worst security year as operators struggle to keep pace with the international nature of organised crime and the more recognisable criminal activities of deception, hijacks and terrorist attacks, writes Dominic Ellis in Dubai .

Speaking at the World Air Cargo Conference in Dubai, David Riley, director of a&b Insurance Brokers, said British losses alone were $250m last year, up 26%.

amenity

So, lie detectors are to be used by the DHS to detect fraud, it works by taking a sample of the persons voice and registers the change when pertinant questions are asked.
This technique has been used by the insurance industry and we hope has proved successful.

Would it, in the interests of equality of arms, (every persons entitlement) be nice if we could have such an instrument that works along with our TV sets. Then when a buraucrat, businessman or politician tries to sell us a duff line we will have it confirmed.

Lin

Ooooh just think of it ,Politicians telling the truth .....good job it's not April 1st !!!.When they come on sale I'll have one........

ivan burit · the old truth or dare game

ME TOO------ME TOO.............

Those were the days when you sat in a circle and spun a bottle with a truth, or, a dare......
If our MP`s done that now, just think of the forfiets they would have to do.
And it would be a lot more than kissing old Maggy Thatcher, i know..lol..

amenity

Fraud fears over digital signatures

For full report read link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6566056,00.html

Press Association
Wednesday April 18, 2007 1:58 AM

Electronic signatures scanned on to driving licences and passports differ so much from people's usual signatures that they may not guard against fraud, it has been claimed.

Researchers at the University of Derby studied 150 signatures created with different types of pen and compared them to the end result when the document is fed into a scanner.

Nikadi

pepsi

Hey Nikadi & Essex Girl, some disagreement from me on the comment that schools should teach all.

I do think they should bring back proper cookery classes and certainly teach environmental subjects, but they cannot teach all.

Unfortunately, I think that there are some parents who do not think they should have a responsibility to teach their children anything, they firmly believe it is always someone elses' responsibility.

Schools should be teaching the basic skills we all need to get on in this world, and unfortunately they often fail on those counts, children who cannot read properly, are unable to write clearly or do maths is not an ideal situation.

But parents should be teaching them social skills, sensible values and the difference between right and wrong, they should be teaching them respect for others and that you have to put in some effort for things, everything in life is not your automatic right or owed to you.

We cannot expect schools to teach our children all the necessary life skills, we also have a duty as parents and adults to make sure we set a good example to all children and help them to learn good social skills and values.

Nikadi

EssexGurl

I agree parents should teach kids a lot more than most do. But when my daughter has cookery and one of those lessons is how to make packet stuff....what is that about. She can read, she doesnt need to learn how to add water to something and stir. All that is teaching them is laziness. Enough children already think that you cook by opening the freezing and putting the box or tray into the oven. I'm not saying they should be taught up to Jamie Olivers standards but when there is an obesity epidemic they need to be taught that healthy food can taste good and sometimes is as quick as a ready meal to cook. If parents wont or cant teach the kids the skills they need who will....and if no one does isnt it just an ongoing circle with them not being able to teach their kids real life skills.

EssexGurl

I may sound old fashioned but when both parents are forced out to work just to keep a roof over their heads something has to give. Some people manage it all ok and some dont. We choose to live without a lot so that I am at home with the kids. I bake with my little ones and now the older ones are always asking if they can bake alone. For mothers day they made and iced me a really nice cake. If I hadn't been home to teach them that they probably wouldnt have even thought they could do it. Also as I am at home I know if the older ones are late home. I know they arent running round the street being hooligans. When we have been out and they have dropped litter I have made them pick it up. They know that people have to pay for things that get ruined so they respect other peoples property.

For parents to be able to bring their kids properly they need to be there especially when they are young. Not forced out to work just to survive.

Nikadi

EssexGurl

No I'm not joking sadly

pepsi

Hey Essex Girl and Nikadi you both have valid points.

I am horrified to hear that schools are teaching about junk food prepartion in classes, they should be teaching about proper notrition and how to prepare fresh food. The abolition by many oschools of the old Domestic Science classes played a part in the fact that now so few people can still cook a proper meal.

Nikadi, you are right in saying that there should be more activities for all people, including the young and one of the problems with schools is that they have had all methods of disciplining badly behaved kids removed from them so how are the teachers supposed to be able to handle nbad behaviour, especially if the parent does not.

Essex Girl, you said the magic words, you made the choice to go without in order to be their for your kids. In our materialistic world, every parent wants to give their kids all the things that they never had and the result is that parents work long hours in order to buy their kids the latest this that and the other, not always just to keep a roof over their heads.

Life is choices and unfortunately, often these days, the wrong ones are made for the wrong reasons but we need to take responsibility for our choices.

Nikadi

I honestly do think that they should bring back harsher punishments in schools. I'd never step a toe out of line if they did! And I would have done all of my work too!

amenity

Sorry to revert to id cards but saw this in the Indy online today. BTW you can get the online version for free.

John Reid was accused of spin after a report on the soaring bill for ID cards was delayed until the day of Tony Blair's resignation.
Figures published by the Home Secretary yesterday disclosed that the cost of the controversial scheme had risen by £840m in just six months.
Ministers were legally obliged to produce the statistics in early April, but put off publication for more than four weeks. The delay brought accusations from opposition parties and anti-ID card campaigners that the Government was trying to, "bury bad news".
Last October ministers calculated the flagship policy would cost £4.91bn over the next 10 years. In a new forecast that should have been released to Parliament on 9 April, the Home Office revised the cost yesterday to £5.75bn.

amenity

I have put this on DC's site but it's worth repeating, get this with ID cards and what have you got? Let's not forget it must be rare for a policeman to come out like this.

A senior police officer has warned that the spread of CCTV in Britain could lead to an "Orwellian" society.

Deputy chief constable of Hampshire Ian Readhead said he did not want to live in a country with surveillance on every street corner.

There are reportedly up to 4.2 million CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people.

Mr Redhead questioned whether there was justification for the cost of increasing camera surveillance in small towns and villages that have relatively low crime levels.

The Hampshire force covers the small town of Stockbridge, where parish councillors have spent £10,000 installing CCTV.

"I'm really concerned about what happens to the product of these cameras, and what comes next," he said.

"If it's in our villages, are we really moving towards an Orwellian situation where cameras are at every street corner?

"And I really don't think that's the kind of country that I want to live in."

Mr Readhead also called for the use of speed cameras to be reviewed, and more consideration of why DNA was kept.

Supporters of CCTV say it is a crucial tool in deterring crime and catching criminals, and the innocent have nothing to fear.

amenity

Well things are going a abundle, government asking for more powers for police to stop anybody and the reason that they want to is quite sufficient.

So our MP's want certain restrictions on how the FOIact applies to them and their reason; to safeguard the correspondence between themselves and their constituents.

But if they are so concerned about security the following is all the more supprising.

During research at the Houses of Parliament concerning the security of Bluetooth telephone connections researcher Adam Laurie found within 14 minutes 46 vulnerable handsets.

Of course these people looking after our correspondence would argue they are not up to speed with the equipment they are using, so don't blame them.

amenity

So, a good reason for ID cards?

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/ccjs//middle-class-crime-2007.pdf

Seems strange that the powers that be have spent money to prove what we all know, that the middle classes are thieves, curios that, so in my estimation must be the upper classes, and we all know about those unmentionalbles, the working classes and god forbid that we cast a glance at the underclass.

The biggest rogues I've ever met are the rich and the rich includes burueacratic organisations, big business etc.

Look at these pages and see the complaints against TDC who would not consider that this organisation is not short changing the populace. So this therefore is, de facto, a crime.

pepsi

Hmm, think the editorial of the report puts it very well.

Consumers are sheep or wolves, easy prey and preying on others, think this highlights soo clearly that we are simply another animal species on this planet.

No better than most other animal species who share this planet with us and in most cases, far worse.

amenity

I have been thinking about the unclaimed money that governemnt knows is not collected by pensioners because they are not aware they only have to ask for it. I wonder has anyone heard the government say that when ID cards are here that all one has to do is present the card and get what you are deserving?

This must be something the government has not considered surely?

amenity

During the early hours on World radio I think I heard someone say there is pressure to remove 'money' as we know it and replace coins and notes with swipe cards, goodbye bootsales, goodbye a untaxed xmas box for the dustman, present for a friend the mighty government will know all.

Of course I could have been dreaming or sleepwalking?

amenity

pepsi

Have been on both sides of that fence Amenity, when I grew up, like most families, money was very tight and we often picked nettles from the hedgerows to cook as a vegetables and often went to bed with rumbling tums Very Happy

Back to ID cards

Hearing all this talk about how they are needed to prevent identity theft, fraud, terrorism and just about every other ill there is one thing that has to be born in mind

the ID card isn't even a partial solution to any of these things unless the act is taken much further by making the carrying of the card compulsory and giving police powers to demand the production of your card without probable cause, which is where I think we are going"

And these are the questions which should be put relentlessly to every politician who supports this ridiculous and dangerous scheme....

"Please explain how a national ID card will address any of the alleged problems you name UNLESS it is compulsory to carry one at all times"

"Will you vote to give the police the power to demand to see the national ID card at any time and under any circumstance?" (Yes or No answer only!)

The more vague the answer to the first question and any answer other than a simple "no" to the second will confirm to us all what the real end game is!

amenity

I wonder if Special constables will be granted the power to stop and demand an ID card, who I wonder could say no I'm not showing it.
Could for instance an MP refuse a special constable and be arrested and taken to the police station?

amenity

Someone has mentioned the possibility and or opportunity for local councils when the ID scheme is in place to be able to carry out DNA analysis of such mundane things as Coke tins, Dog end of fags and other kinds of rubbish and then on the basis of the DNA "evidence" fine the 'offender'.

BTW anybody know what the on the spot fines are for littering?

Nikadi

amenity

amenity

So, with 15,000,000 peoples ID's gone missing what is the case now for keeping the ID card scheme, a grander theft later perhaps?

Politicians knew about this latest fiasco 10 days ago, hmmm?

Lin

Just heard about this ,never trusted the department involved and this has proved a lot of worries to be accurate.
If they cannot even get this right ,how on earth can we now trust them to keep any information private.
If you have a child and claim child benefit ,keep a very close eye on your bank account.
I was of the mindset of 'if you have nothing to hide ,then ID scheme was not a bad idea' sadly ,this is not the case...I hope the right heads will roll and whatever idiot put this info through the wrong channel will stand up and say it was them.
Grrrrrrrr

amenity

Lin

I think one of the most worrying aspects of all this is the amount of time they knew about it and left us in the dark.My God ,even the banks knew before us.

Well ,I was straight down the cashpoint to check my account and will be checking it every 3 days from now on.

I have been a victim of Identity Fraud in the past and ,luckily .spotted it quite quickly and set the wheels in motion to sort it out (not as easy as you think)I informed the Police ,who were not interested ,so did some detective work and found out it was a person living where we used to live ,who had since moved on .
Well I couldn't find her ,but I did find her father ,who I telephoned and told him just what his daughter had been up to ,not a happy chappie.It took ages and a lot of phone calls and cost me money to sort out and that happened with her knowing my name only.Beggars belief what they could do with your NI number ,Phone number ,DOB ect Mad

What a mess.....
ID scheme.........your having a laugh....I wouldn't even try Mr Brown and co...

amenity

Lin,
It really is hard to say anything nice about the turnips who run, Ha! Ha! this country.

When they all push off, then I will say something nice. How about GOOD RIDDANCE. Evil or Very Mad

Lin

Amenity ,how about "See ya ,wouldn't want to be ya" Wink

mojo

About 15 years ago I discovered - by accident - that my ex-husbands sister was using my 70 year old mother's NI number in order to obtain extra work but not pay tax on it.
I reported her to the Inland Revenue and was told that they weren't going to do anything about it because "it wasn't really cost-effective to investigate".

So I shopped her to the firm she was working with with that NI number.
They told her they had evidence she was using a NI number that wasn't hers and she lost her job

amenity

From the Independent,
So Brown will do everything in his power to make sure data is safe, why well he wants more info on the population I suppose?

As recently as 25 October, the Government rejected Mr Thomas's request for such a power in response to a Lords committee. It said then that "the current enforcement regime for data protection is fit for purpose". But yesterday an embattled Mr Brown appeared to relent, adding that he would also consider the commissioner's plea for the creation of a new criminal offence of "reckless disregard of data protection principles". He insisted: "We will do everything in our power to ensure data is safe."

amenity

amenity

The link and info is from a site that purports to be responsible for the issues listed below. Perhaps we should ask if they have been approached by the ID card people to advise on points?

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/act...e1?committee=2362&language=EN

Committee responsible for:

1. the protection within the territory of the Union of citizens' rights, human rights and fundamental rights, including the protection of minorities, as laid down in the Treaties and in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union;

2. the measures needed to combat all forms of discrimination other than those based on sex or those occurring at the workplace and in the labour market;

3. legislation in the areas of transparency and of the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data;

4. the establishment and development of an area of freedom, security and justice, in particular:
(a) measures concerning the entry and movement of persons, asylum and migration as well as judicial and administrative cooperation in civil matters,
(b) measures concerning an integrated management of the common borders,
(c) measures relating to police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters;

5. the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction and the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, Europol, Eurojust, Cepol and other bodies and agencies in the same area;

6. the determination of a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the principles common to the Member States.

amenity

Got a couple of hours to spare for a gripping movie in which you take part (unwittingly)

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

The first 37 minutes could be dropped it is about religion but the rest simply first class.

amenity

Saw this and thought it worth repeating, (hope)

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus

amenity

So a government minister says he knows what two other people are talking about on the phone late at night in private. What I would like to know is HOW?

Andy Burnham, who has been tipped as a future prime minister, suggested in a magazine article that Mr Davis had indulged in "late night, hand wringing, heart-melting phone calls" with the director of Liberty.

For the full story;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news...o-sue-over-tory-smear-851017.html

ivan burit

Today, a family member had an urgent letter fom a "local" NHS Hospital he attends.
In the letter it was explained that one of its members of staff had been in Scotland, with his work laptop, that had been stolen.

This laptop contained personal information on "several" thousend patients, amongst many other files of "less-sensative nature.
My family member had his in amoung them several thousend.

We are assured that the computer was password protected and only autherised staff with the correct password could access this data....

BUT as the data was not encrypted there is a "very small" chance that patient details CAN be accessed..

Details such as personal information = patients names, their date of birth, post code, hospital number, hospital investigation and or treatment that is / was / still ongoing..

It goes further BLAH BLAH BLAH...

At the bottom paragraph,
please be assured that the Trust takes security and patient confidentiality very seriously..........OH YEH...
We are holding an ivestigation into how this "incident" occured and its consequences and have suspended the member of staff involved until the investigation concludes...

Yours sincerly. Peter Murphy Chief Executive....
(was this the same one in last weeks paper who said his job is now worth double pay..?.)

A few things spring to mind.
my / yours / anyones personal information is / can be easily accessed on the NHS computer, it says that above.
my personal involvement a few months ago with Barts of Londons computer after its upgrade was nothing short of disgusting, slow, unworkable unless you got the hand written code to log into its data base...nice..!.!.!
How many times have we as a nation, have been told that national security has never been at its highest..
so the dimbats with our information leave laptops on trains, in cars, loose discs in the post.............
why not give it all away and be done with it........
the culprits are doing it almost daily now.......

Years ago security meant a lock and key, it meant a big dog that barked.
Todays security means that only bonafide personell access it,
then loose it all somewhere.......

Colchester Hospital has a freephone number 0800 328 0015.
IF you would like to speak to someone about it..........

I bet the lines are a bit jammed right now..

ivan burit

my above posted story was on tele tonight...

amenity

Did anyone else get an inquiry from ECC saying they were doing a Tendring Travel Census day and would we provide personal information, (that was extremely personal) but giving no assurance that anyone could believe that this information would remain secret.

Did they really need to know each of these classifications of our age, sex, education, occupation, driving licence, car ownership,income, method of transport.

Added to this would be your place of work etc etc. Probably you would think safe enough on it's own but coupled with everything already held on computer about us not much left to the imagination, and should any crook get his hands on these tidbits he would have a field day.

The assurance given is printed below, does it fill you with confidence?

Data Protection
The completion of this travel diary is voluntary. All information is collected on a strictly confidential basis. The data collected in this survey will only be used by Essex County Council to plan and inform the delivery of transport infrastructure and services. The information will be used to compile a database of trips. Any addresses provided will be converted into postcodes and in this way be made anonymous. Reporting will be undertaken at an aggregate level, thus preventing the identification of any individual trip from the results. DATA WILL BE PROCESSED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998. ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL IS THE DATA CONTROLLER.

mojo

Ah, but did anyone notice that on the front of each traffic survey booklet there was a number? Call me cynical but why? Anyway, I blotted my number out.

Also, when the original card came through the letter box telling us about the travel survey there was a picture of a bus on it. I so assumed that the survey was about the buses in Tendring.
Then the survey came and I realised it was about all types of travel.
Did you see the enclosed envelope was addressed to "Car Parks Survey"?

I wonder how much all that cost?
First of all the information card went via Royal Mail. Then the survey itself. Then the pre-paid return envelope............

Now, I'm in California right now and will be for the next two months so I am relying on you all to keep me up-to-date with all the goings-on in the area.

ivan burit

Mojo, like you i have been away for a while.

Also, my post oftan gets mis mailed into the wrong letter box...

anyone else suffer from this..................................lol.

amenity

If my post gets wrongly posted I never know, but, over the years we have had to redirect mail on countless occasions that came through our letter box.

Lin

I had that Travel Survey as well ,and my thoughts were the same as Mojo's ,just how much money did that waste.
I'm afraid they won't like my replies on the last page though.Tough ,shouldn't have bothered asking if they don'y want the truth.
I did ,however, point out that there should be a website or something that dealt with Local Car Sharing.With the price of petrol the powers that be should be looking into this.My husband started off the year car sharing with one other chap ,now there are 5 of them in the car.If they didn't do this ,no-one would be able to afford to get to work.

Also had another 'survey' from the council this week wanting to know all sorts of things.Best ones were "What nationality are you" funnily enough there were boxes for all sorts but not one that said English ,so put down in 'any other' box White English.Also asked what our sexual orientaion was Shocked

,I answered in the 'other' box "Mind your own business" .

pepsi

Lin, there is a web site dealing with local car sharing, it has been mentioned on BBC Essex Radio most days, try

http://www.liftshare.org/v3/pages...ctedmatch=Clacton-on-Sea,%20Essex|||4931|||gb|||51.792805|||1.153184|||town|||from

I did a quick search to see how many lists were operating from/to Clacton but it covers the whole country.

Lin

That's brilliant Ta Pepsi .I'll give the address to anyone who needs it as my OH 's car is now full .Not that I'm moaning as he now pays 1/5 of what it was in petrol.

amenity

Got this today, worth repeating.

More than a card - a new way of life
The ID Card scheme is not just a harmless new bit of plastic in your wallet. It requires a massive and intrusive database that changes the nature of UK Citizenship and shifts the balance of power further away from the citizen to the State. With the National Identity Register (NIR) and ID Card, the Government will control your identity. It will decide who you are. Showing ID to officials will become an everyday part of British life.
Although other Europeans are used to ID Cards the NIR is much more controlling than their ID Card systems and they have legal safeguards we do not. It will open your life to inspection by thousands of bureaucrats.
Spiraling costs
Even the Government admits the minimum cost is £5.8 billion - that's six domes! That estimate has doubled since 2004. And it only counts Home Office costs and not the penalties for errors, or the cost of policing many new offences. The Government is reducing the Civil Service but is building a whole new Identity Service. Taxpayers and businesses will have to pay yet more for special scanners in doctors' surgeries, benefit offices, banks and even hotels.

The biggest ever White Elephant
Big Government computer systems are a catalogue of disaster. Yet this is the biggest and most complicated government computer scheme anywhere, ever.
Even if it works perfectly, the ID scheme cannot meet the problems it is supposed to solve. The Government admits that the NIR will not stop terrorism. Almost all benefit fraud is lying about circumstances, not who you are. A single master document makes identity theft easier, and more worthwhile, not harder. Criminals don't play by the bureaucratic rules. ID Cards won't cut crime.
A tool for bullies
With a wink to racists, the Government says ID will stop illegal immigration. But it doesn't in the rest of Europe. Asians and black people often feel they are unfairly stopped and searched by police already. ID will give more reasons to "check" people. What's more, demands to prove you are British will creep into more and more public and private services, with the system as an excuse. How does a divided society make you safer?
And when it goes wrong? — You, the suspect
You are about to be fingerprinted, eye-scanned and tagged like a criminal. Any errors will be your responsibility. The Home Office will have the final say. Even now about 100 people a month (out of a few thousand checked) are wrongly marked as criminals by the Criminal Records Bureau. The NIR could mean several checks a day for everybody. What happens to your life when the scanner fails or there's a mistake?
Say NO to ID
The ID scheme is expensive and socially destructive. Either it will help make Britain a police-state, or it will be a bigger white elephant than the poll tax. Help us
stop it.
www. N@2ID .net

amenity2

The newscaster on ITV 3 was telling the story of the missing private files of the criminals that have been lost she started to link to the other laptops etc that have been lost by government agencies, when hey presto, she was cut of in her prime.

The main newscaster was quite clearly cross over this. No explanation was given for this strong edit/censorship.

Do we live in a police state or what?

ivan burit

amenity, no answer needs to be given on here my friend...

amenity2

Did you see the headline in the Telegraph today.

Kids as young as eight are being used by councils to spy on people dropping litter, graffitti makers watch out £500 reward for kids.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinio...ml=/opinion/2008/09/06/dl0602.xml

1984, 1939 Hitler youth what have you.

Are the kids empowered to ask to see your ID card?

What next Evil or Very Mad

ivan burit

Amenity, go send a couple of the kid spies to see the Rev Flowerdue in St. Osyth.
its website explains all.
It is worrying though amenity, when as you rightly say the Hitler Youth were recruted for "only" watching out, but as they get older, what next.

On re reading through some of the very old posts, i read about electronic signatures.
For a fact, you are required to electronically sign your arrest papers,
after leaving 2 DNA swabs, electronically taken finger prints and photos, before you are let out on bail, complete with printed information sheet with computer printed signature at the bottom.

WHO HOLDS THIS ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE.

Can it be used to "sign" a confession that was never confessed.

To me its very worrying, would it you if your electronic name and signature is held by someone else.

We have seen that another "loss" of sensative information has been sdmitted to, but happened about 18 months ago.

Can all of H M Prisons staff sleep easy now they know all of their details have the possability that criminal masterminds have every detail about them..

Things are going downhill very fast lately...

amenity2

Once Hitler got the youth he savagely divided, easy to rule people that cannot rely on members of their family.

None of this is new so the conclusion is "they are using these techniques deliberately."

If, twenty years ago we had written that this would happen people would have scoffed.

It takes but minutes to lose rights and sometimes centuries to retake them.

Vicar

What amenity said there times ten.

amenity2

This really says it all.

From the Independent.

Leading article: An assault on our freedom

Independent.co.uk Web

Talk about an unwelcome arrival. The Government has unveiled a small piece of plastic which represents a big threat to our historic liberties. The Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, was showing off Britain's first biometric ID cards yesterday. From November, the cards will be issued to foreign students from outside the European Union and to marriage visa holders. According to Ms Smith: "We want to be able to prevent those here illegally from benefiting from the privileges of Britain."

The hundreds of thousands of irregular migrants who work in Britain's black economy will find that reference to the "privileges of Britain" rather rich. The truth is that irregular workers tend to go to extreme lengths to avoid any form of contact with the British state. They do not consult doctors, complain to the police of routine mistreatment, or claim benefits because they fear being deported. Rather than looking for another way to make life more difficult for such people (the vast majority of whom are simply looking to better their lives in a country with a ready supply of work), the Government should be considering an amnesty, as proposed by Anthony Browne in this newspaper today.

That said, we should not be distracted from what is really going on here. ID cards are not about migrant workers, but about all of us. The Government is preparing for its planned nationwide roll-out of ID cards in 2011 by first imposing them on one of the most reviled groups in our society. It is the thin edge of the wedge.

But we should not submit to such underhand tactics. The stupidity of forcing through this costly scheme as Britain enters an economic downturn should be obvious. The Government has stretched the public finances to the limit. To embark on a £4.7bn ID card project at such a time is fiscally irresponsible.

The public mood has also hardened since the Government first hit upon the idea. Who can have witnessed the carelessness with which the state has treated our personal data in the past year and still feel confident about handing over such sensitive information to officialdom?

Yet the most powerful argument against ID cards remains one of principle. The idea that we should routinely have to carry around a piece of card to prove who we are is an outrage. Even if Britain was still economically booming and the Government had an impeccable record of protecting our personal information, these cards would be unconscionable. Nothing has changed. We do not need ID cards and anyone who wishes to defend our freedoms should stand up and tell the Government so with a clear voice.

ivan burit

Todays paper reports the loss of 11,500 or so teachers full titles with names and addresses on a disc sent in the post...

Carry I D cards, what name would you like sir, could be if the lost information ended up in the wrong hands........AGAIN....

Will this stupid countries departments not stop and realise the importance of secure transportation of sensitive information.

Courier packages do NOT get lost in transit very often if you have to sign for them at each end of delivery.............its not hard is it..

mojo

We're back to the obvious answer: encryption.
It's not that difficult to put into place and, to be honest, I would have thought it should be a mandatory thing for businesses, government departments and any place that holds personal information.

amenity2

amenity2

I suppose we've all heard the news about the Big Brother Database.

Heres a link.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news...-big-brother-database-961388.html

amenity2

Wonder what they will do about this knowledge?

The Information Commissioner's Office has released a survey of 1,000 people across the UK, which it claims shows that the public has 'woken up' to privacy. Whilst the survey itself is a huge set of figures (28 pages of them, a real treat for stats fans), an ICO press release and a BBC News article help shed some light on the survey's implications. Most notably, over 70% of those surveyed felt powerless over how their personal data is looked after (see page 3 of the survey) and over 85% refuse to give personal data when given the option.

ivan burit

amenity, i found this piece about sealand

http://archive.gazette-news.co.uk/2000/6/7/201853.html

amenity2

"It would also require anyone who had encrypted information stored on their computer to hand over the decryption key. Anyone who refused would face up to two years in jail."

Let us not forget that our elected representatives will lock us up if we do not accede to their wishes.

We are but a small step away from disaster.

ivan burit

A most famous line (excuse the pun) in Jaws, the movie,

"were gonna need a bigger boat"

So amenity, do they see us as unlawfull, with the need to lock us up in even bigger prisons "we gonna etc"

If so, do they built an extra section for themselves....?

amenity2

So! it's down to Brown and Smith, what is? OUR FREEDOM.

Full report.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news...-big-brother-database-966919.html

"New doubts about the Government's ability to hold data safely were raised yesterday after figures showed that the Home Office and Ministry of Justice had lost or had stolen 3,492 security passes since 2001 – more than one a day."

amenity2

A dear old pal called on me today and remarked that his bus pass had the wrong image on it, what do you mean said I. Out came the pass and sure enough his name but someone else's face, about the same age (mid seventies) white beard but the powers that be got it all wrong somehow.

Funny enough the bus drivers don't seem to mind and he has been promised another with the correct picture "very soon".

We must not trust our leaders to respect our information and identity.

ivan burit

amenity, this is not a crazy as it seems.
a few years ago, (before 9/11) we went abroad to menorca for a quick week away on one of them last minuet.com holidays.

book, pack, go.........

at the customs, we held out our passports for inspection, and was waved through.

at the car rental desk, i showed my passport, and it was refused, i wondered why ?

i was using my wifes without knowing it..... Laughing

...lol

my nearest and most expensive was holding mine... Shocked

.

now, no jokes please about my moaning like an old woman,
as the wife will bash you......... Twisted Evil

.........lol

amenity2

The customs men must go by body language or something, recently a friend was going abroad with a party of acquaintances and when he was asked "did you pack this case yourself" he truthfully said "NO". A huge intake of breath followed by "Would you step this way sir".

Of course as he said later, jokingly, "why bark and have a dog yourself".

But worse still unable to control his constant jokes, as the rest of the party was strolling through the barrier he said " I'm just the decoy the guilty have gone through"

He escaped eventually.

ivan burit

HA--HA--HA---------

was his name ivan also...........lol

amenity2

I forgot to say for his cheek, they threw away all of his precious shampoo, toothpaste and liquid soap, which his loving other half had so carefully packed.

amenity2

On a more serious note, its all about to get worse.

"Britain's security agencies and police would be given unprecedented and legally binding powers to ban the media from reporting matters of national security, under proposals being discussed in Whitehall."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news...-to-censor-the-media-1006607.html

Our elected representatives are involved in this action.

ivan burit

Oh well amenity,
our newspapers would end up at just 4 pages then ?

perhaps thats the idea, they may issue per person,
a pair of rose tinted glasses,
just to make sure the world looks nice...

On a more serious note,
i watch the "other" news channels on satellite TV.
you get a more factual slant on the same story.

some of these news channels show it how it is, sometimes being a bit gory, but if its news, its news, and as such, should be shown as it is...

ivan burit

amenity2

amenity2

Well it has come to pass, over the Xmas period it is announced we will have our telephone contacts logged by government.

Closer and closer to the thought police.

Happy New Year to one and all.

ivan burit

amenity2

ivan burit

amenity, i have spoken of this before but in jamaica, the obituries sections of there newspapers, its more or less in 3 age groups.
10 - 18 year olds
25 - 35 year olds
60 - whatever god grants them...

the 1st section was drug related
the second lack of drug related - diabetes etc
the 3rd, great grandads and grandnans loved by most..

we in our world expect to recieve most treatments for free, prescriptions excepted, unless illness or age or confinement untill giving birth and after.

the working class pay N I stamp , ok not stamp no longer, but insurance payments taken from, or given when requested to our great ? system.

note i said our working classes, if we, our country, is overwhelmed by better life seeking immigrants, who come with illness and or confinment, then take adantage of our free for all health system, at what point does the drain on our resources start to not only hurt, but bl**dy sting as well.

I could go on and on, but will not, but for saying, it took me many years while working to pay into gov,uk`s money pot almost, very nearly the maximum, just a tickle from the top, of the maximum needed for full uk retirement pension.
but, while working although quite ill really, it took years for correct diagnosis via one of the best hospitalls in the uk for endocrine illness.
for me, why did i have to wait for so long....i feel bitter about it really
the good side is i now have my weekly carrier bag of medications to keep me "alive" ?...lol

most of them jamaicans never could afford their carrier bag of monthly medications who died of diabetes type illness while still could have had so much time to live...

Its a funny old world amenity..

I D cards

National ID Cards-Another Government Money Pit

the old truth or dare game